This video clip is taken by Venerable Luon Sovath during forcible arrest.
"Monks are not arresting the monks, laymen are arresting the monk" - Ven. Loun Sovath
"Cambodian Buddhist monks are under pressure of the politicians" - Ven. Loun Sovath
"You (laymen) arrest the monk, it means you arrest Lord Buddha including all Cambodian monks and Supreme Patriarchs" - Ven. Loun Sovath
"No one can ban me from fulfilling my tasks, the tasks that are not opposing the Vinaya and the Rule of Law" - Ven. Loun Sovath
"You arrested me by force, by anger and hatred, by greed and delusion....I have no anger and revenge, and I forgive you all" - Ven. Loun Sovath
"The means of non-violence will overcome all obstacles" - Ven. Loun Sovath
"Natthi Santi Paramam Sukham = No Other Happiness is Greater Than Peace" - Ven. Loun Sovath
Saturday, May 26, 2012
Exposing on the actual arresting of Venerable Luon Sovath
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"No one can ban me from fulfilling my tasks, the tasks that are not opposing the Vinaya and the Rule of Law"
ReplyDeleteAs long as he has the idea of "me" and "my" task, the "me" and "my" task will be always higher as the respect in regard of Dhamma and Vinaya as well as there will be always a reason to put an higher task as simply righteousness.
Words are easy to say in defend, but how one does actually act is a matter of longer observation.
From a Vinaya viewpoint he is actually no more a monk, but even a monks could be arrested, as he has to follow the national roles how ever they are.
It would be good to really understand this:
"Natthi Santi Paramam Sukham = No Other Happiness is Greater Than Peace"
Are you Preah Arahanta Hanzze? I am not Preah Arahanta who aim to Nibbana alone...I have mind and heart to love my countrymen and motherland.
ReplyDeleteIf you are really Arahanta, you might not be disturbed by my love, compassion, non-violence and altruism towards the weak people of Cambodia.
"I" and "My" here is my supposing name to catch the highest bliss that can benefit both myself and beloved Cambodian people.
Buddha and his disciples left there clans. Why because identification to "me", "mine", and "I" are the reasons for suffering.
ReplyDeleteIt's very worldly that people are attached to unreal things which do not last, that is why they suffer and Buddha taught a way out.
Love (tanha and craving) is the reason for hatred and the mother of this twin brothers is the delusion, at least the believe in an I.
There is no reason why a monk would be allowed to step away from his normal task.
If he likes to act like every normal suffering person, there is no problem, just give away the robe and respect that ones understanding is quite to little to walk Buddhas way.
As for:
"You (laymen) arrest the monk, it means you arrest Lord Buddha including all Cambodian monks and Supreme Patriarchs"
and
"No one can ban me from fulfilling my tasks, the tasks that are not opposing the Vinaya and the Rule of Law"
According to Vinaya a monk is not allowed to show disrespect of any kind to a layman, even he is downing wrong.
He is so incredible confused, that is not a little aware of his actions and he really believes that he acts in accord to the Buddha and is a holly man.
Buddha would have kicked him out as he also did in his times with by far not so much confused monks, proclaiming that they teach what Buddha had taught.
"If you are really Arahanta, you might not be disturbed by my love, compassion, non-violence and altruism towards the weak people of Cambodia."
One does not need to be an Arahant to understand the roots of suffering and one does not act with compassion in stilling desire, craving and love but one acts with compassion in making people understand why they actually suffer.
Over this the world does not exist only of "I" and "my", myself and my country, there are countless beings you might call "you" "your", nations, religions, parties, policemen, soldiers, robbers, animals... which are part of the wheel and have the same problems, the same desires and are also subject to aging, sickness and death.
Cambodia is nothing that even can be called a being, its just a name. How silly one must be to hurt his fellow beings, struggle with fellow beings for the sake of a name? It's you that makes hurt you. Get free of that pride and start to help people without opposite good and bad, without discrimination in accordance to real tasks.
There are billions of troublemaker, do you really think that we need troublemaker calling them "I act in Buddhas name?". If you like to suffer, do it, but do not involve people devoted to Buddha and his teachings on nonviolence. And try to learn that non-violence starts with intention.
And the right intention to fight greed (what this kind of love actually is) is "renunciation" and that is the biggest problem in this case. You are not aware of the violence it causes and you do not see the victims out of it. One day you might face them and you will break down like Asoka did, but he did not wear the robe of the Buddha will fighting on a battlefield.
Be mindful (remember, hold in mind the right intention), do not mix up the things!
Dear Hanzze;
ReplyDeleteHow deeply you understand the core teaching of Lord Buddha? At least, there are two streams of Buddhism: Theravada and Mahayana. Inside, Theravada, there are many branches as well such as forest monks and city monks. Or Vipassana Dhura monks and Khanda Dhura monks.
For Khandha Dhura monks, they have focused on learning the teaching more than practice Vipassana. Lord Buddha admired both way of practice of his disciples. But Lord Buddha disagreed with those who are practicing superstition such as palm reading or watering holy water etc.
For general Cambodian monks, they focus on Khanda Dhura which this part of learning is about "I", "My" and "Our" in the purpose of using our supposing "I", "My" or "Our" to develop for the highest liberation of Nibanna.
What Dhura are you practicing right now? Vipassana or Khandha Dhura?
Dhammaduta
Friend Dhammaduta,
ReplyDeleteI don't know how you come to such thoughts and questions in relation of the topic.
There are many ways to come to the stream, but the eightfold path is always the same. If we use the worldly eightfold path also correctly we might come faster to the higher one.
Your attentions and thought are always marked by discrimination and comparing in a way "better I am, equal I am, more worse I am" That is called mana (pride, conceit).
If we focus more on intention and deeds, we find a way out of mana, so we just divide our thought. In this way we are able to maintain right intention which is with his following virtue factors necessary to gain right concentration for some insights and to sharpen the wheel of the eightfold path.
And yes, we are using our conditions as beings to go beyond it, but just if we use it the way its taught it will lead to an success.
Buddha did not taught two streams. There are good teachings and there is Adhamma.
And those teaching attachment to the world and not detachment are clearly called as fake preacher by the Buddha, if we look into the pali canon. But even if one does not read suttas and has a little sati would understand that if he knows a little about depending origin.
How ever, actually such Dhamma discussions would be from more benefit as the spreading of attachment and quarrels.
Maybe you think about it and have some good influence that your work has some benefit for the people and the forest here in Cambodia. You are playing with people who used to live a long time in fight and pain and disunion. Do not use them for personal ideas and teach Dhamma and not Nonsense. Life is short and merits are fast wasted a human existence might be also far away and even if had made the vows to reach Buddhahood, a Bodhisata never comes into the real under animals. A splitter in robes therefore never will be able to gain Buddha-hood or collect any paramis in this way.
Before you start on the meditation part, you would need to clean a good amount of defilements with virtue away and without keeping the Vinaya (or the virtue part of the eightfold path) you will never be able to gain any real insight as you are not used to mindfulness and out of any right concentration.
Friend;
ReplyDeleteWhat is the topic? Is it about "I", "My" and "Our" that you suggested?
However, all my comment is to follow your thought.
Let discuss on Eightfold Path then. Venerable Loun Sovath is practicing "right speech", and " right action" etc.
And for him, he has fully practiced the Eightfold Path in the part of Khanda Dhura.
Let show me some of your knowledge and practice (as you have always claim the no "I" etc.) on the part of Vipassana Dhura in Eightfold Path...please, elaborate your end right now.
Thanks in advance,
Dhammaduta
Dhammaduta,
ReplyDeletenot a little my friend, not a little. And as I told you, it's pride that asks.
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?
"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."
— AN 5.198
"And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action?
"There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.
"Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord.
"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large.
"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.
"This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action."
— AN 10.176
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletesorry, making mistake
ReplyDeleteKinds of speech to be avoided by contemplatives
"Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these — talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not — he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue.
"Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — 'You understand this doctrine and discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!' — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue."
— DN 2
"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'
"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."
— SN 56.9
"There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful — to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects."
ReplyDelete— AN 10.69
Nobody is able to practice any meditation with beneficial results, when he does not develop the virtue section. Why?
"One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech."
— MN 117
And there is no, no higher reason why one breaks virtue.
A person acting like a child, like a worldliness might use meditation to compensate some amount of his faults, but he will never attain anything.
Why is that, because naturally (no matter if one is aware or not) the bad conscience, would not let him go on a subtle level of mind. Raw, very raw defilments are always present.
That is why the practice starts with virtue and strengthens the virtue, but if one has wrong view and wrong intention and even no faith in what the Buddha taught, he is not able to even get an idea what the eightfold path is about.
To understand anatta their is a lot of work to do and it does not starts with attachment to the world, it starts with right view.
as "For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie."
ReplyDeleteThe person who lies,
who transgress in this one thing,
transcending concern for the world beyond:
there's no evil he might not do.
— Iti 25
As for you (if you are a monk), I like to remember:
ReplyDeletesaṃghādisesa 11
Not to encourage a bhikkhu who works to divide the saṃgha. If one (or several) bhikkhus support another bhikkhu who works to divide the saṃgha, the bhikkhu(s) who notice or hear him doing so, must tell him: "Do not follow this bhikkhu." If he does not obey this interdiction, the witnessing bhikkhus must then reiterate this prohibition by giving him a lesson using a specific formula. If the prohibition (to side with the bhikkhu provoking a division in the saṃgha) is posed a second and then a third time, by means of the same formula, but the bhikkhu still doesn't reject his opinion, it entails a meeting of the saṃgha.
saṃghādisesa 12
Not to reject admonishments made on his behaviour. If a bhikkhu does not respect the rules of the vinaya, if he does something which is in discord with the vinaya, those among the bhikkhus living with him who see or hear him doing so, are obliged to make him notice his behaviours or actions, which are not proper and that he must abstain from them. If he responds by refusing to obey, the other bhikkhus must teach him a moral lesson by means of a specific formula. If after having admonished him in the same way for a second and then a third time, he refuses to give up his opinion, it entails a meeting of the saṃgha.
The bhikkhu must not refuse to listen to remarks made on his behaviour, even if he is the most respected one in the monastery and even if the remarks are made by a bhikkhu of less seniority, because if they are legitimate and he objects to them, he is likely to undergo the procedure entailing the saṃghādisesa 12.
Friend;
ReplyDeleteI see only copy and pasted, copied and pasted; I don't see any point directly answer the above question.
However, when you raise up this term of "Anatta", what does it mean by that?
Your head, hand and body is atta or anatta? If you can answer, you can begin with the right view of eightfold path.
Dhammaduta
Dhammaduta,
ReplyDeletethat is right, it seems also to me that you see nothing. A hand is pointing to the object and rather then you look where the hand is pointing, you look at the hand and blame that the hand does not lead anywhere.
I can not help you, the all known secret of Buddhas teaching is that you need to look for your self. Your body is not the I, your mind is not the I, your thoughts and feelings are not the I, your consciousness is not the I, your presentations and ideas is not the I but the untrained man seeks for all or nothing, he does not see the middle path, he has no idea of the flood.
He puts his ego in marvelous kind in ideas, and his mind is so manifold like there are different species on the earth.
It does not help to learn things by words. Its easy to write anger on a board. But how it happens is to fast for you. Bang! You have not seen how it happens but you lie hurt on the ground.
Step by step! There is a lot of work to do, to establish Silas and even if your wisdom is not so good, you will gain a next good possibility in the next life.
If you like to see some phenomena of how atta acts, you can read the original post. Remembering anatta could help to make such deeds. But if one thinks that there is a real "I" he might also say: "Natthi Santi Paramam Sukham" and believes that it is there to be found.
There is simply no idea of what awakening is about. There is simply no idea what Dhamma is about.
Directly to the point, so head, hand or body are anatta according to your answering because it is just part of the supposing atta.
ReplyDeleteYou are right!
But don't forget that Anicam, Dhukkham, Anatta. The three characteristic Lord Buddha repeated in all his discourses.
So, could we change to say Dhukkham, Anicam and Anatta?
Dhammaduta
Look, even you read something your ideas about it transform a lie about what was written and in the same way like you do it with my words, you cheat the Dhamma. When reciting "this was said by" it should be that. Otherwise such thing is called speaking what was not said.
ReplyDeleteSo if you call that was said (or that was your opinion), that be careful that it was said.
That is why it is usual to copy and paste, especial if you have not really an understanding.
But people who are very attached to a self, like to put there own into everything.
All compounded things (dhammas) are impermanent (anicca) therefore also without a self-nature (anatta) and therefore also subject to stress/suffering (dhukkha).
This things are just different levels of understanding, this are not different characteristics.
There are no compounded things which are just anatta but not dukkha or just anicca but not anatta. Therefore is one is absent all are absent and the point is found in "compounded" (depended).
That is the reason why we learn to let go of compounded things (dependent things) and look for the "unbinding" as there is not a single secure in anything else.
If you like to understand what makes a being this might be useful (better than to grasp atta in a just material way - the aggregates are five):
Satta Sutta: A Being
ReplyDeleteI have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.
"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
- SN 23.2
So now you understand that Anatta is just to clarify that "no attachment" is involved. It doesn't mean to deny I or My. Lord Buddha tried to deny I and My followed Hinduism by practice "self-mortification", but it is not the way.
ReplyDeleteAny change will lead to suffering, any thing change, suffering and we cannot stop it or cope it because it is Anatta.
I hope you get this point, friend,
Dhammaduta