Increasing violence used in bid to make residents of Cambodian capital make way for developers.
Cambodian police have been using increasing force to thwart protesters fighting to hang on to their lands against developers looking to erect skyscrapers, shopping malls, and apartments in the Boeng-Kak Lake neighbourhood of the capital.
Civil rights groups estimate that over the past decade, one in ten people in Phnom Penh alone have been forcibly evicted from their homes.
Activists say the forcible evictions are a violation of their democratic rights.
Al Jazeera's Steve Chao reports on the growing violence being used to force people from their homes.
Source: Aljazeera
Friends,
ReplyDeletethere are Ten wholesome topics of conversation
"There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful — to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects."
— AN 10.69
taught after this event:
Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "For what topic of conversation are you gathered together here? In the midst of what topic of conversation have you been interrupted?"
"Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not."
"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not.
May the way to peace as taught by the Buddha do not get forgotten in our wired time.
with metta
_()_
It seems talk about basic rights of human beings and social justice has been encouraged by Lord Buddha.
ReplyDeleteDhammaduta
Dear Dhammaduta,
ReplyDeleteyou are right that his teachings would lead to that but you will not find any encouragement of the Buddha that Bhikkhus should be do it in that way, beside by simply teaching the Dhamma.
Trying to change things in such a way, means that there is less faith in what the Buddha had taught and grows easy to:
A thicket of wrong views
"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... does not discern what ideas are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention, and attends instead to ideas unfit for attention... This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention... He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices."
— MN 2
Encouragement means to have the motivation to help others, and to be abe to help other one needs to free him self from wrong views and after that he/she is able to free other as well from suffering.
As long as one is not free from suffering it is good to relay just on Buddhas words and don't follow personal ideas of what could be right or wrong as this is not seen in a thicket of wrong views.
If we stay mindful mistakes do never happen, if we are not mindful, our mind runs away where ever it is used to it.
to be continue...
...continue
ReplyDelete"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness...
"This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference."
— DN 22
_()_
with metta
Hanzze
Dear Hanzze;
ReplyDeleteBuddha encouraged his disciples at his first command that "Bhikkhus, wander to all directions to expose the Dhamma for the benefits of the whole, for the well-being of the whole...; expounding the Dhamma beautifully in the beginning, in the middle, in the end; those who have never heard the Dhamma, will realize it..."
Dhammaduta
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete(I had some typing mistakes, so I deleted it)
ReplyDeleteYes dear Dhammaduta,
the Dhamma "beautifully in the beginning, in the middle, in the end; those who have never heard the Dhamma, will realize it" and as the Dhamma is beautiful, we suddenly realize also if somebody does not spread, peace and harmony, but takes side, calls for opposite, calls for additional quarrel and fight, attached to material things, to family, to "i" to "we" and is caught in a thicket of wrong views.
Buddha taught how to get the fire extinguish and cool, the fire of grasping and carving. His way was not to put oil in it, but to uproot it's support.
Preaching the Dhamma means preaching actually the Dhamma. Teaching suffering, the cause of suffering and reason for it and the way out.
Actually the way out is quite enough.
Teaching ones opinion, ones worldly attachments, taking about the unwholesome topics, engage others in unwholesome topic, make people suffering by running messages and subcarrier and talebearing, is not teaching the Dhamma.
Where and how to teach is also good explained in the Vinaya.
You will not find a single story where Buddha encouraged in such ways, but you will find hundreds of suttas where the Buddha admonish such wrong deeds, which are not useful for one self and not useful for others and lead to more suffering.
"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not.
_()_
with metta
Haliddakani Sutta: To Haliddakani
ReplyDeleteI have heard that on one occasion Ven. Maha Kaccana was staying in Avanti at Osprey's Haunt, on Sheer-face Peak. Then Haliddakani the householder went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Maha Kaccana: "Venerable sir, this was said by the Blessed One in Magandiya's Questions in the Atthaka Vagga:
'Having abandoned home,
living free from society,
the sage in villages
creates no intimacies.
Rid of sensual passions,
free from yearning,
he wouldn't engage
with people in quarrelsome debate.'
"How is the detailed meaning of this, the Blessed One's brief statement, to be understood?"
[Ven. Maha Kaccana:] "The property of form, householder, is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of form, it is said to be living at home. The property of feeling... perception... fabrication is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of fabrication, it is said to be dwelling at home.
"And how does one not live at home? Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions with regard to the property of form: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home.
"Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of feeling... perception... fabrication...
"Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of consciousness: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home.
"And how does one live with society? One who is in bondage to the distraction of the society of form-impressions is said to be living in society. One who is in bondage to the distraction of the society of sound-impressions... aroma-impressions... flavor-impressions... tactile-sensation-impressions... idea-impressions is said to be living in society. This is how one lives with society.
"And how does one live free from society? The Tathagata has abandoned bondage to the distraction of the society of form-impressions, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be living free from society.
"The Tathagata has abandoned bondage to the distraction of the society of sound-impressions... aroma-impressions... flavor-impressions... tactile-sensation-impressions... idea-impressions, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be living free from society.
"And how is one intimate in villages? There is the case where a certain person lives entangled with householders. Delighting together with them, sorrowing together with them, happy when they are happy, pained when they are pained, he takes on any of their arisen business affairs as his own duty. This is how one is intimate in villages.
to be continue...
...continue:
ReplyDelete"And how is one not intimate in villages? There is the case where a monk lives unentangled with householders. Not delighting together with them, not sorrowing together with them, not happy when they are happy, not pained when they are pained, he does not take on any of their arisen business affairs as his own duty. This is how one is not intimate in villages.
"And how is one not rid of sensual passions? There is the case where a certain person is not free of passion for sensual pleasures, not free of desire, not free of love, not free of thirst, not free of fever, not free of craving for sensual pleasures. This is how one is not rid of sensual passions.
"And how is one rid of sensual passions? There is the case where a certain person is free of passion for sensual pleasures, free of desire, free of love, free of thirst, free of fever, free of craving for sensual pleasures. This is how one is rid of sensual passions.
"And how does one have yearnings? There is the case where a certain person thinks, 'May form be like this in the future. May feeling... May perception... May fabrication... May consciousness be like this in the future.' This is how one has yearnings.
"And how is one free from yearning? There is the case where a certain person does not think, 'May form be like this in the future. May feeling... May perception... May fabrication... May consciousness be like this in the future.' This is how one is free from yearning.
"And how does one engage with people in quarrelsome debate? There is the case where a certain person is a fomenter of this kind of debate: 'You understand this doctrine & discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine & discipline. How could you understand this doctrine & discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. I'm being consistent. You're not. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine, or extricate yourself if you can!' This is how one engages with people in quarrelsome debate.
"And how does one not engage with people in quarrelsome debate? There is the case where a certain person is not a fomenter of this kind of debate: 'You understand this doctrine & discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine & discipline. How could you understand this doctrine & discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. I'm being consistent. You're not. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine, or extricate yourself if you can!' This is how one does not engage with people in quarrelsome debate.
"So, householder, what was said by the Blessed One in Magandiya's Questions in the Atthaka Vagga:
'Having abandoned home,
living free from society,
the sage in villages
creates no intimacies.
Rid of sensual passions,
free from yearning,
he wouldn't engage
with people in quarrelsome debate.'
"This is how the detailed meaning of this, the Blessed One's brief statement, is to be understood."
SN 22.3
_()_
with metta
Hanzze
Dear Hanzze;
ReplyDeleteThe Dhamma, not only beautifully in the beginning, beautifully in the middle and beautifully in the end; the apprenticed monks will teach them by both visible analogy and invisible (Dhamma) analogy. Bhikkhu monks are not appropriate only few places in their traveling, but to engage with the people in need for peace and wisdom, people in need for spiritual refuge, and people in need for non-violent advices, all are very necessary.
Regards,
Dhammaduta
Dear Dhammaduta,
ReplyDeleteYes, and how they should be engaged is good explained in the Vinaya. If you don't agree with what the Buddha talk and and you like to relay on your personal ideas or the ideas of the mass (selecting some nice sentences Dhamma but nit understanding whole meaning, as well as not trusting the elder and wise), there is no problem, but its a very problem if one calls it the advices of the Buddha.
Actually I did not find any Buddha teachings among such presentations here, but I find the use of some words of Buddha as introducing and than bending to the left down to a "A thicket of wrong views" attached to what needs to be detached to understand Dhamma.
To remember a little on the Vinaya (for people do not understand):
"Teaching Dharma
The monk as Dharma teacher must find the appropriate occasion to give the profound and insightful teachings of the Buddha to those who wish to hear it. It would not be appropriate to teach without invitation, nor in a situation where the teachings cannot be reflected upon adequately. This is a significant point, as the Buddha's teachings are meant to be a vehicle, which one should contemplate silently and then apply. The value of Dharma is greatly reduced if it is just received as chit-chat or speculations for debate.
Accordingly, for a Dharma talk, it is good to set up a room where the teachings can be listened to with respect being shown to the speaker. In terms of etiquette, graceful convention rather than rule, this means affording the speaker a seat which is higher than his audience, not pointing one's feet at the speaker, not lying down on the floor during the talk, and not interrupting the speaker. Questions are welcome at the end of the talk.
Also, as a sign of respect, when inviting a monk it is usual for the person making the invitation to also make the travel arrangements, directly or indirectly."
You also mind investigate what's the different in Buddha sending his noble Sangha to go forth and teach and the running of trainees around the world, attached to the world, not free from suffering by them self's.
Last but not least one should not forget:
WRONG PRACTICE OF BUDDHA-DHAMMA
The Buddha, here representing the true teaching, is being attacked by three monks and one laymen. The fact that there is only one layman attacking the teachings indicates that many monks, once having been ordained in the order, continue to follow false path and are attached to worldly matters and ceremony. They are indifferent to the true teachings and prefer the Wheel of Wandering-on to Nibbāna.
(Monks, as they are more conspicuous than layman and because they are supposed to be devoting their lives to the Three Gems, and because it is known that they have many precepts to keep pure, can attack the Dhamma by misconduct in a more violent way than is possible for laypeople)
Take care of your self and others!
Detachment leads to peace attachment to suffering. That is why Dhamma is beautiful at the beginning, in the middle and at the end. Detachment brings peace. And that is why politic and blindly involvement brings suffering in addition. Attachment brings suffering.
A fortunate rebirth is rare. Therefore: practice!
_()_
with metta
Hanzze
Hanzze;
ReplyDeleteThe destruction of Nalanda university were partly caused by the radical warriors of Turk Muslim, but it was also partly caused by the detachment of the Bikkhu monks in preparing for self-defense.
Your preach is not called Padipanna Dhamma. Otherwise, your effort to bring different sources of Dhamma to this place is really helping you something with intentional purpose, not to purely guide people to the Dhamma.
More than this, dragging around on the Vinaya you have referred here is not our main topic. Our main topic is the Vinaya of Lord Buddha is wholly depending on the wisdom and enlightenment of the monks. Vinaya is a lively asset of Buddhism. It has survived by time, space and changes. In the past, Bhikkhu monks were strictly avoiding from holding money and wearing shoes etc. But for monks, according to wisdom, using shoes and money is healthy in reaching different directions of the world.
Many Theravada monks in Western countries must wear jacket and boot to protect the winter, what do think in this practice?
Dhammadutta
Dear Dhammadutta,
ReplyDeleteif there are 99% do not respect the vinaya, does not mean that they do good as well as it would be not excuse to do not follow it. Only the thought of taking others faults as an excuse for his own disability shows how weak ones understanding of practice could be.
Nobody tell anybody that he needs to have faith in Dhamma-Vinaya (Buddhism) and the teachings of Buddha, to have no faith but wearing his robe is sad, really sad.
Buddha told that his teachings will pass away and he also told that this happens when the Vinaya will not followed any more. Buddha Dharma died about 1960 is Cambodia already. Maybe there will be some people who understand the Dhamma in the future but I think it will be not that fast. To much attached to sensuality are the people her now and the most Monks are the first in line. Not a little idea what Dhamma is about.
There are countries which are not sustainable to good Theravada practice. That is also the reason why there has been developed the northern School as a compromise. To spend the winters in cold areas is not possible for a Bhikkhu (Shoes and additional clothes is not the problem, there are exceptions in the Vinaya for cold places) but one would be not able to go for alms and therefore one would be a prisoner (on actor) of a layman's group strong involved in their business.
One will find missionary missions and traditional/political actors as well, but not easy a Bhikkhu staying in cold countries over the winter.
If you tell that I do not deal with untrue and drugs to get people follow, yes that is right. It is irresponsible to cheat people to get them as devoted donors or supporters.
Maybe you give it some studies of Vinaya and Dhamma as well as some investigations reading what the Buddha had taught.
To use some words and a religion to manipulate blind believing and trustful people who are mostly not well educated and trust their monks can be a big failure.
Be mindful!
_()_
with metta
Hanzze
Dear Hanzze;
ReplyDeleteCambodia is not a state which rule of law (Secular Dhamma) has been implemented. Buddhism in Cambodia has become a tool for communist Vietnam and their installed regime to along with innocent Buddhists, and secretly undermine the truthfulness of practicing Buddhism and Vinaya.
True Vinaya must be carried out by all Bhikkhu monks especially the top leaders, Supreme Patriarchs.
Dhammaduta
Dear Dhammaduta,
ReplyDeletethere is neither any must nor is it possible to use Dhamma for the mass. It's not about nations, race, politic, family... and right practice has no effects by this things.
Mara is inside one self and not outside. One him self is the reason form problems, never its a matter of others. Each cause has an result. The more attached the deeper into troubles.
If I my self have faith (out of understanding) in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and had find out my self that there is nothing more helpful as keeping virtue by one self as active reducing of the suffering in the world, I will do so.
There is no need to care about others and to say "he should do" "I dont do it because the other need to do it also..." is nothing but an excuse. All we might be able to handle are our own action, we have plenty work to do to be able to guide our self's well.
No need to focus on others while one self is not master of one self.
And at least the Sangha is like a
The Millipede
When lots of us come to live together, it's easy to practice if our views are correct and in line with one another. When we're willing to bend and abandon our pride in the same way, we all come together at the level of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. You can't say that having a lot of monks interferes with your practice. It's kind of like a millipede. A millipede has lots of legs. When you look at it, you think that it's sure to get all confused with so many legs. But it walks. It walks back and forth, and there's really no confusion. It has its rhythm, its order.
It's the same with the Buddha's teachings: If you practice like a disciple of the Buddha, it's easy. In other words, you practice rightly, practice straightforwardly, practice to gain release from suffering, and practice correctly. Even if there are hundreds of us, thousands of us, however many of us, it doesn't matter. We can all fall into the same current.
to have a leading step in this movement one needs to clean and take care of his own rhythm and his own dirt. Here a additional simile for how we practice:
Sweeping
Our routines give us lots of strength. Wherever in the monastery you can do them — regardless of whether it's your own hut or someone else's: If it's dirty or messy, straighten it out. You don't have to do it for anyone's sake. You don't have to do it to impress anyone. You do it for the sake of your practice. When we sweep our huts, sweep our buildings, it's as if we sweep all the dirty things out of our hearts, because we're people who practice. I want each of us to have this attitude in our hearts. Then we won't have to ask for harmony or cooperation. It'll already be there.
Stay mindful and develop understanding and compassion toward people who are caught in wrong views. Send them much metta and always remember "If they would know and understand, they would not do it." No need to judge people, they change like everything changes and past deeds are already done and will have their fair results. Nothing more fair then karma, its an natural law. We can accept it or struggle like little children wanting things like this or that.
_()_
with metta
Hanzze
Sangha means community and caring of each other. In the past, when disasters came, the whole Sangha (Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, Upasaka, Upasekha) will help each other to prevent danger from that disaster. If your mindset is about "self" and no caring of others, you must isolate yourself from the Sangha.
ReplyDeleteIf you are living within the Sangha, you must not twist the Sangha's ideal.
Dhammaduta
Dear Dhammaduta,
ReplyDeleteI don't think that you get the point as well as I don't think that you understand the function of the Sangha founded by the Buddha as well as you have still have doubts in the Vinaya which are the fundamental roles to maintain the Sangha as a living movement.
It is not possible to ride on two vehicles. One can do so, but he will insure him self. Coining the Sangha means to have the intention to abstain from harming and seek for a way to real peace.
To be able to join the noble Sangha, one needs to seek for advices form the noble Sangha as the fellows persons of the first kind among the eight persons, would not know the right way, not having joined the eightfold path jet.
One sight for having attained of the person of the first fruit and left the first magga (path) is that there is no more doubt about the teachings of the Buddha.
There is no need to twist the Sangha ideal, its a millipede out of people of the first magga and the noble Sangha (less are there in this world) and the ways of maintain it well is the Dhamma Vinaya. If one seeks for reinterpretations of the Buddha, one is filled with doubt and needs to be careful that he does not bend left.
As for a layman its normal that he expresses such things, but for a monk even he is a worldling it's not proper and could give the wrong light on the Sangha and therefore the Vinaya has also its ways to handle such things.
Let me explain puthujjana (worldling):
The name for worldling in pali is puthujjana, an ordinary man (that can be a layman as well as a monk).
puthujjana means "mass - human" because:
* because they are producing (janenti) a mass (puthu) of maculations
* because the haven't uprooted a mass (puthu) of self - believe
* because they listen to a mass of teacher
* because they are involved in a mass of subsistence tracks
* because they are busy with a mass of activities
* because they are teared away by a mass of different floats (sense - floats)
* because they are burning from a mass of various embers and fevers
* because they are delighted by the various (puthu) manifesting sense desires
* because they are heron filled with greed, obsessed, bewitch, devoted, attached and inhibited
* because they are inhibited, caught and shrouded by the various manifesting of the five constraint
A person of the first magga tries to turn form being a worldling to a noble one and you are correct if you tell that the Buddha advised this disciples to turn away from the puthujjana even they try to carry the logo of being noble ones.
If one likes to gain success on the path he needs to follow the noble ones (mostly worldly people do not recognizance them, but as soon as there is a good amount of Dhamma understanding one is safe from disorientation).
Its easy to recognition a busy monk, a busy person as simply a worldling. Its a fact that the Sangha consist also out of worldlings and they take a big part of it and should be seen as the fellow students, but its not wise to adopt the ways of worldldings if one honestly strives for peace for others and for one self.
_()_
with metta
Hanzze
Dear Hanzze;
ReplyDeleteYou have not yet elaborated on the question on "Sangha". If I am not wrong, you might mean Sangha cannot divided into noble Sangha and worldling Sangha.
Please, be rightly on the point, I don't want to zisack around.
Dhammaduta
Dear friend,
ReplyDeletetry to take your time and read once again.
As for Sangha there is one Sangha, in the whole universe one, not more.
The Sangha consists out of the eight persons, the four path and four fruits.
The first person, one who strives to attain the first fruit (abstaining form harming and seeking for liberation for one self as well as for others) is not part of the noble ones yet and still have not joined (turned wheel of the eightfold path one time fully) the middle path of Buddha Dhamma even he might dry his best. There is still doubt, seek for pleasure and a wrong believe in an "I" (atta dithi). This group is the biggest among the Sangha and the group of the noble ones is very very small and does not belong to people in robes exclusively.
Once again, if one seeks for success and further attainments he needs to follow the higher ones. Its good and needed to support those along one self, like one needs to take care of his classmates, but that one really learns something he needs to look at the best in the classroom as well as listen to the teacher. Having many people in the classroom does not mean that all of them have the serious wish to learn, some make it as a deal, some make it because they are told so to do, some because they do not know what else to do and so on.
When the group of students turn left and laziness, formation of groups and the tendency to invest more time for things beside the tuition may fail. Even those who seriously like to study will face the problem that the fool are taking over the mainstream. And that is the point where a serious student even needs to leave the class and seeks for other ways to attain knowledge and wisdom.
Its not astonishing that you would not easy find noble persons among those who sign them self's as being serious disciples.
_()_
with metta
Hanzze
Dear Hanzze;
ReplyDeleteFinally, you accepted some different level or status of members in the Sangha.
Dhammaduta
Dear Friend,
ReplyDeleteyou can try what ever you like, I would not take side.
There is one Sangha and off cause there are people with different attainments. The eight people who are part of the Sangha.
If I accept or not would be secondary and not important, but that is the Buddha Dhamma. Even somebody would not understand it fully yet and has doubt (what is natural if one haven't attained the first path fruit) - a deep bow to the many generations of virtues disciple, who made the Suttas available till today - one is able to study the verbal Dhamma.
"The four pairs are (1) the person on the path to stream-entry, the person experiencing the fruit of stream-entry; (2) the person on the path to once-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of once-returning; (3) the person on the path to non-returning, the person experiencing the fruit of non-returning; (4) the person on the path to arahantship, the person experiencing the fruit of arahantship. The eight individuals are the eight types forming these four pairs."
There are many who discriminate between fruit attaining people and the first person and sometimes call the Sangha as only those who have attained a fruit. Some proclaim the Bhikhhu Sangha as the real Sangha. And some say, only those who have taken refuge to the three gems are part of the Sangha.
I disagree with all of this. The first person, one on the way to Stream - Enter is a very part of the Sangha and this is the biggest group and not divide able form signs and clothes.
One who has an amount of right view and seeks for leading a live without harming as well as for liberation is part of the Sangha, even he does not know.
It's up to every bodies empathy who is all part of the Sangha, if your heart is very open and unattached it might embrace the whole universe. Discrimination is up to the individual and Buddha Dhamma teaches us to lose more and more of it.
Of cause a noble disciple (one who has attained a path fruit is a different person and no more part of the worldly people) is a different person and will never be able to fall return.
_()_
with metta
Hanzze