Tuesday, October 25, 2011

Dhammaduta responded to Hanzze: a brilliant debate

This is just a re-posting again from this link:  http://luonsovath.blogspot.com/2011/10/latest-update-of-ven-preah-krou-luon.html#comments But we posted only the comments of Dhammaduta. I think Hanzze will not be minded.
Dear Hanzze;

Your words have become a conspiracy that after the authority marginalized him by threatening all students, friends and supporters to isolate him, now it comes to your term "financial isolation".

Your logic of not allowing monks to touch money is inapplicable in the present change. Buddha's Vinaya allow monks to carry or hold money in hand but not mentally attachable to it. Buddha allowed monks to use it wisely especially for the purpose of four necessary needs. More than this, Ven. Luon Sovath has his own Maggathayaka or follower who can take care all those money and monk's necessary belongings.

The works of defending human rights, animal rights and natural rights is the duty of Lord Buddha and all his followers including Bhikkhu monks and laypeople (Sangha). Your words are the same as Supreme Patriarch Tep Vong's who has considered the work of defending those rights belonging to laypeople only. Logically speaking, your words mean totally amputate the tasks of Lord Buddha and degrade the Buddha Dhamma.

Four Brahma Vihara encourages us to help others (human beings, animals and nature). It is the immeasurable quality of people mind ie:
1. Metta = Loving Kindness
2. Karuna = Compassion
3. Mudita = Sympathetic joy
4. Upekkha = Neutral mind or free of four biases:

1. The bias by love
2. The bias by hatred
3. The bias by delusion
4. The bias by scary

Ven. Luon Sovath has mediated more than 10 years and his mind is full of these immeasurable quality of mind or Brahma Vihara.

Of course, Supreme Patriarch Tep Vong of Cambodia has been ordained by a Vietnamese monk during their victory over Khmer Rouge regime. Somdech Tep Vong is not good in teaching the Dhamma. He has exchanged and traded with laypeople by reading their fortune or watering magical water to laypeople in expect of returning back some money or material. The Nissaggiya 20 has been fully attesting to his saffron robe.

But regarding holding money for necessary needs is wise for Bhikkhu monks. In the past, laypeople kindly offered transportation to the monks or monks preferred to walk with bare foot. In the present, if monks don't have money in hand to give to the taxi drivers, their bare foot cannot tolerate with many glasses cracking pieces.

Regarding Somdech Tep Vong, he is not welcome by major Cambodian Buddhists as he doesn't rightly practice the Buddhist teaching, every time he has chance to speak or deliver the Dhamma, he couldn't elaborate the discourse clearly, but he can elaborate the goodness of Vietnamese troops during the 7 January 1979 in details and clearly.

Cambodian people have called Somdech Tep Vong, the Supreme Patriarch of 7 January 1979.

As a fact, many critics have come to his ears but he is still working as a missionary of 7 January day very well.


The problem of Metta is wisely debatable. Metta with attachment and Metta with detachment.

Worldly Metta is the attachment Metta (Lokiya Metta). Supra-abundance Metta is the detachment Metta (Lokuttara Metta). Only those whose Dhamma Padipatti attained the Annaakaamimagga (the third stage of dhamma stream attainment), ones should detach worldly Metta.

Ven. Luon Sovath has practiced meditation several years, and he has never proclaimed that he has attained any stage of Dhamma stream (note that there 8 stages of Dhamma stream attainment). He is still be a simple monk who spent much of his time for study and meditation. Now he has become deeply inspired by the suffering of his relatives and other fellow Cambodians who have been treated unjustly. His worldly Metta has been personally accumulated and now this Metta has been gradually sharing with others.

Theravada Buddhism is referred to the elderly teaching which aim to attain Nibbana more than other purposes. But the elderly teaching has never neglected or rejected the sharing Metta of Bhikkhu monks with laypeople and surrounding communities.

Ven. Luon Sovath is different from lay people by his yellow robes, shaving head, mendicancy, celibacy and living a homeless life with simplicity.

His daily activities are:
1. Bappajaa = renouncing the world
2. Bhikkhu = mendicant
3. Samana = peaceful person
4. Caratha = wandering to all directions for the welfare of human beings
5. Metta = sharing the Dhamma and loving kindness with others
6. Avihingsaa = non-violence
7. Khanti = forbearance
8. Soraca = trustworthy
9. Yonisomanasikkhara = pondering conscience
10. Samadhi = meditation

Traveling is not different from walking or drinking water or breathing air through our nose, all those can bring many lives to death but do the monks break the vinaya by such unintentional deeds and microscopic insects?

Buddha rejected the teaching Jainism whose doctrine is very extreme...all Jain monks must filter the water 100 times before they swallow through their throat.

Buddha Dhamma is middle path or eightfold path you elaborated last time. In the part of wisdom: right thought and right view must be critically applied them.

Wisely applied, faster traveling for the Dhamma purpose can help the needs and the destitutes.

Engaged Buddhist monks with society is not contradict to the Vinaya as Sangha is part of society. Monks and laymen are original interdependent (Padicca-samupattha).



  1. Dear friend,

    I dont mind. Maybe you also dont mind, if I post the missing post (which have been deleted) in the original blog.

    Dear friend,

    the Vinaya, Monk rules even the Suttas explain in detail how a Bhikkhu is neither involved nor takes part on unwholesome deeds.

    nissaggiya 18

    "yo pana bhikkhu jātarūparajataṃ uggahṇeyya vā uggahṇāpeyya vā upanikkhittaṃ vā sādiyeyya, nissaggiyaṃ pācittiyaṃ."

    Not to accept money. If a bhikkhu accepts or receives in one way or another, gold or money, it must immediately be relinquished and it entails a pācittiya.

    What ought to be considered as gold or money are: all precious metals, coins, bank notes, checks, credit cards, restaurant tickets or any other type of monetary means (all that which enables to buy something). However, telephone cards, stamps and transportation tickets do not belong to this category as these things do not enable one to do shopping.

    To proceed in the forfeiture of gold or money, all the bhikkhus of the vihāra meet in the sīmā and appoint a bhikkhu - renowned for his honesty - who will go and throw this gold or money outside of the monastery without bothering to take note of the spot where it falls, or even informing anyone whosoever of the spot where he went to throw it (in the case of a check book or a credit card, it must be given back to the bank). This gold or money that was not worthy to be accepted can be eventually handed over to the persons in charge of the monastery or to the association that administers it, but in no way to a kappipa*.

    Note: This rule corresponds partly with the last of the ten precepts.

    What is a kappiya?

    If asked to be a "Kappiya" for a new monk, this is a very noble and good thing for you to do! There are so many things that monks can't do for themselves like preparing their own food etc. so there is a need for assistance. Being a Kappiya means that you need to offer him any requisites necessary - whether you buy them for him yourself or arrange with others to help is up to you. The requisites are 4 food, robes, lodging and medicine. In this way the monk doesn't have to handle money. By being a Kappiya it means that the monk can ask you directly for a requisite when he has need. The Kappiya is the only person who the monk can ask for things directly. And just because the monk asks doesn't mean that you personally have to provide it, many times other people want to practice their generosity but don't know what to give.

    The Kappiya can suggest things to them.

    Being the Kappiya can be as big or small a responsibility as they want to take, Sometimes a monk may have many Kappiyas, especially if it is a large Sangha, but he depends mostly on one or two of them for most things.

    There are many roles which are broken all the time in our Country and that is also the reason why there is less difference between a layman and a Bhikkhu. Actually mostly Bhikkhus are more involved in worldly life as simple normal people.
    Buddha explained very clearly that if the Vinaya falls and would not be understood anymore, the Buddha Dhamma disappears.

    We can not promote Buddha Dhamma and ignore Vinaya, we can not do something good while we are making things against virtue.

    If somebody does not understand the Vinaya and its good results for one self and all other beings, than he totally misunderstand the Dhamma. Actually we live in a very dark time, but I am sure there are people who understand that doing good by failure in virtue does not really help.

    to be continue...

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    Posted by Hanzze to ព្រះពុទ្ធសាសនាសង្គម
    Engaged Buddhism at October 24, 2011 6:31 PM

    continue you will find on the webside:

    with metta

  2. Must be a virus, deleting some posts on and on.

    May this virus disappear.

    with metta

  3. Regarding the travel, for those who don't see the harm with it, Buddha gave also rules to protect for wrong doing:

    "One should not ride in a vehicle. Whoever should ride: an offense of wrong doing." — Mv.V.9.4... "I allow a vehicle for one who is ill." — Mv.V.10.2... "I allow a hand cart and a cart yoked with a bull (§)." ... "I allow a sedan-chair and a hammock sedan-chair." — Mv.V.10.3

    85. Should any bhikkhunī, not being ill, ride in a vehicle, it is to be confessed. [Mv.V.10.2]

    with metta